What needs to happen for WAG gymnasts and coaches to "get" that E-score outweighs D-score on beam and floor?

[Denn]

Clarification: I am not saying I want rules that lead to routines like this. I am just saying this strategy would improve things. Even better rules would lead to even better routines, though.

The data has been here for over 10 years: the E-score outweighs the D-score in terms of importance.

But, generally speaking, except maybe on uneven bars, gymnasts and coaches keep showing up with deduction-ridden exercises overloaded with extra elements that also get deducted.

The balance beam champion was okay, but she isn’t a particular great beamer — there were many others were more capable. Yet the easiest sets (and shortest sets) got the top scores in beam finals (Kovacs being an exception).

I genuinely believe that a change of strategy — shorter routines with lower D-scores with more repetition and confidence in the training gym — could vastly improve the gymnastics we see.

Why don’t gymnasts and coaches “get” this? What will need to happen for them to break the inertia?

 

[RichardL]

Yes! I know Jade Carey doing a 3-pass routine sounds like a horrorshow for those who don’t want to see her dance any more than absolutely necessary, but her front layout stepout to full-in should absolutely replace her last two passes. Just as an example.

I feel like they’ve mostly figured this out re: vault, right? Which is why we don’t see any more chucked Amanars? Beam and floor, though…

 

[RAFIKI]

Very good question. Belgium qualifying 5th in Tokyo? Canada winning team bronze?

I feel like Black gets it and she did incredibly well all week (I’m in denial that’s it’s over and now last week) with lower D scores. Kinsella’s beam stands out to me for its compactness, despite the fact that she often goes overtime because of mistakes. However, as we’ve seen on multiple occasions, mistakes cause her score to plunge due to missing requirements.

 

[Hatsumomo]

Belgium qualifying 5th in Tokyo? Canada winning team bronze?

Japan WAG becoming more competitive and being a hair’s breadth away from a team medal.

 

[GymBeauty]

Jade already counts the front layout in her 8 skills, removing an acro line would mean needing to replace it with a Popa or something. I don’t think that would help her, although sadly in many other cases it is the right answer these days.

We’re at a point where non-acro elements on Floor needed to be devalued. Double Wolf and Double-L should not be the same as a Double Pike. Popa should not be worth only .1 less, there is a bigger degree of risk between those skills.

Reduce the value of all non-acro elements by .1, except for the Double “layback” and “beillman” spins. Those can stay where they are now, and would be nice to see for a change (hopefully).

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

say bye bye to the double L and double wolf then… Most gymnasts already get hit .1 for excessive preparation, let alone any execution errors.

If they’re willing to go to K for a Triple double laid out, then the WTC should be more imaginative with the alphabet so that a full-in pike is actually worth doing.

Edit: Oh you’d reduce all dance skills a letter… interesting. That would certainly incentive tumbling. I was thinking counting 7 skills on floor, minimum 3 dance. And an overhaul of the letter system.

 

[Livi]

We go back to tumbling only routines then. I thought everyone wanted the artistry back, the perfect combination of tumbling, artistic elements and dance. I think it’s good to see a variety in the floor finals. Like Naomi Visser versus Jade Carey. Jade (and others) are allowed to do the turns as well you know, also in combination. But they are hard to do well. If not for the fall, Eythora would have made floor finals as well. There’s a reason no one does her turn combo.

So I agree instead of changing the code altogether, Jade should make a smarter routine (and work on her artistry for that matter). She needs to become a more complete floor worker (just as Naomi probably should increase her tumbling difficulty to have a real shot at a medal).

 

[GymBeauty]

We go back to tumbling only routines then. I thought everyone wanted the artistry back

There’s 3 non-acro skills required on Floor, it will never be tumbling only. Non-acro skills don’t necessarily have anything to do with artistry anyway. Plenty of people do leaps and turns with zero regard for the music or any choreographic purpose. Including Eythora. Her turn combo would still be worthwhile, she would get to count 2 C skills and have .3 connection bonus. That’s the same as a D+C acro combo.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Yet the easiest sets (and shortest sets) got the top scores in beam finals (Kovacs being an exception).

I genuinely believe that a change of strategy — shorter routines with lower D-scores with more repetition and confidence in the training gym — could vastly improve the gymnastics we see.

I am still perplexed over the scoring of Kovacs BB in QC. Compare that E-score to the E-score of Spence in the TF - bad body break, knees EVERYWHERE and the leaps and jumps. I understand that it was a different competition phase with different E- judges, but isn’t the purpose of the certification exams plus the on-site judges briefing (and the WTC actually sends out routines in advance for the judges to evaluate and discuss during the briefing) to ensure that there is a uniformity in the application of the code and thus having a uniformity across all competition phases.

Making more compact exercises, trying to eliminate deductions will begin to erode away at what spectators (and judges too) want to see - risk (safe risk) and originality.

How many bwd full twists or arabians or front pikes were presented on BB. I remember that in the 90s there were numerous examples of acro series on BB with four elements directly connected. And there was much more originality in the choreography then also.

The complaint that BB was becoming “trick-based” with little choreography. Now look it.
Basic (and I use this term loosely) skills plus for the most-part - SH*TE choreography. Oh look - she’s laying on the beam - torso up - arm wave - to the knee and up. Oh look - here is her side choreography - step cross step - arms waves and move on.

I cannot think of ANY piece of original choreography at all. The closest I can think of is Ondine’s was of getting low to the BB.

The TC is doing their best to make make gymnastics UGLY.

I watched a YT broadcast (NBC) where the commentator says that Memmel said that they wanted Jade’s exercise to have MORE skills so that there would be less time for chorepgraphy - what is the fucking world coming too?

 

[Denn]

I should clarify that I don’t WANT these routines. I am just saying that, if the rules have to be like this, that’s how to “beat the rules”, few are doing it, and it would improve what we see. Even better rules would lead to even better routines, though.

@FrolovasDoubleLayout I agree with pretty much everything you said. (No surprise there!)

Should we all score Kovacs qualifications beam? (Videos are up now)

 

[makam]

Laurie said the rule was that their stomach had to touch the beam. So, that low to beam “choreography” has become standard. Same with the sideways walk. If they made it more generic “some part of the body other than hands and feet needs to touch the beam for choreography” some variation might actually occur. I’d adore it if extension rolls (?) made a return. Hell, Jade could do that instead of walk/turn/walk to get across the beam and I’ll forgive a lot of her general stiffness in movement.

If what they want is a recreation of the greatest beam routines in history, they need to a) make it known and b) reward the skills that made those beam routines. If the only way to win is throwing super hard skills that require set up time, you’ll never get the rhythm that was common in the 80s.

 

[Yarotska]

Jade already counts the front layout in her 8 skills, removing an acro line would mean needing to replace it with a Popa or something. I don’t think that would help her, although sadly in many other cases it is the right answer these days.

She did a switch 1/2 + Popa dance series in NCAA, it was fine. And a Popa is worth more than a FLO anyway.

 

[Denn]

Jade would still need a forward salto, though.

 

[Yarotska]

Tbh, I miss Jade’s front 2/1. It looked so easy. Maybe she could do a Randi.