Warning about US WAG program.

[KristyJ]

No one seemed to complain much when Biles won the AA in 2018 with two falls.

Ferrari, Biles, and Melnikova have now won World AA titles with falls. All very dominant gymnasts in their respective championships.

To be fair I felt that was a rules issue too. I'm not sure Simone would disagree even, she was pretty unhappy with her meet, though I am sure she'll have no problem keeping those medals.

I don't think the gymnternet is a complete monolith in that regard.

 

[Doug1233]

If you factor in Leanne deserving to win AA Gold and Skye deserving to win UB Silver

I am absolutely not a Melnikova fan, but I don't think you can make such blanket statements like that.

I had Yang in silver, Skye in bronze, McDonald in 4th, and Melnikova in 5th (losing a tiebreak).

I have yet to do the AA. But when I'm bored between now and Winter Cup, and if we can find a reliable set of videos, I am sure I will.

 

[irichluck21]

People complained about 2018.
It had to be explained that while Biles did count two falls, she was able to win because her difficulty far surpassed what a fall would count against her.
Yes she fell on vault but started from 6.4 where as the other gymnasts started max from 5.4, the only exception being Teramoto starting with 5.8 for the Rudi. Even with the fall on the Biles 1, Biles was still 6th on that event.
She fell on beam but was still 9th on that event.

That started conversation about wondering if 1.0 for a fall should be more.

 

[flappergirl]

Yes, I think this is what everyone is forgetting. We haven’t really seen a post Marta, Simoneless USA team. 2017 was very much still a product of the Martha era and then things got weird because of the Olympic delay.

We went through a similar period after 2004 when Khorkina retired and Arkaev went. And that whole quad was a disaster.

But I will say this, because I’ve always said it when this topic is raised. No country has ever maintained a dominant WAG program whilst being nice to the athletes. We might not like it, but it’s true.

I 100% agree about coaches can’t always be nice, but there needs to be a line that cannot be crossed. Obviously gymnasts cannot be sexually or physically abused, starved or forced to compete in minor competitions at all. And there needs to be a policy about injuries that maximizes the gymnast’s longevity.

A lot of what needs to happen is education of everyone, so the gymnasts can grow into autonomy.

 

[MaryClare]

People complained about 2018.
It had to be explained that while Biles did count two falls, she was able to win because her difficulty far surpassed what a fall would count against her.
Yes she fell on vault but started from 6.4 where as the other gymnasts started max from 5.4, the only exception being Teramoto starting with 5.8 for the Rudi. Even with the fall on the Biles 1, Biles was still 6th on that event.
She fell on beam but was still 9th on that event.

That started conversation about wondering if 1.0 for a fall should be more.

D is measurable, E isn’t. Clearly Melnikova’s E scores were far enough above the rest that she could medal with a fall. Didn’t the same thing happen to Mustafina in Rio when she got bronze with a fall?

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Did Simone not do an interview or tweet or something in 2018 saying she realised she hadn't had good day in the AA in 2018 and understood why people felt frustrated at an AA winner with falls?

 

[Sasha]

People were frustrated in 2018? Girl was miles ahead of anyone else but also had kidney stones. It wasn't a competition for the ages, but I don't remember people being frustrated that she won.

 

[Denn]

It had to be explained that while Biles did count two falls, she was able to win because her difficulty far surpassed what a fall would count against her.

Yes, and it's not just her difficulty. Biles also had good execution on multiple events. So the falls were bad, but they also were paired with strong difficulty AND otherwise strong execution relative to the field.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

People were frustrated in 2018? Girl was miles ahead of anyone else but also had kidney stones. It wasn't a competition for the ages, but I don't remember people being frustrated that she won.

There was definitely complaining. I mean, when isn't there? I think some of it was about the wider situation as well though.

 

[Sasha]

There was definitely complaining. I mean, when isn't there? I think some of it was about the wider situation as well though.

The wider situation of no one being able to beat Biles even when she has a kidney stone? That was more of a Biles thing than a rest of the field thing.

But yeah, the gymternet does like to complain.

 

[RedBirdie]

Simone in 2018 was just so wildly far ahead of everyone else. Her d score (25.4) was 2.7 points higher than the next highest d score (Melanie DJDS 22.7)! Simone was 3.4 points higher and Murakami and 3.1 higher than Hurd, who finished with silver and bronze.

 

[Lisaelaine80]

No one seemed to complain much when Biles won the AA in 2018 with two falls.

Ferrari, Biles, and Melnikova have now won World AA titles with falls. All very dominant gymnasts in their respective championships.

I complained.

 

[KristyJ]

Within the rules, Simone fairly won, for sure. There is some valid debate over if that is flattering to the rules but Simone definitely could run laps around the field in difficulty, even with a kidney stone (ow!). 2006 and 2025 aren't so much of a case of overwhelming difficulty, though there is some difficulty advantage at play.
I think it was Denn who asked the other day if a 2 point deduction would be more appropriate for a fall, and I have to say I think it's worth considering, if only because the .1, .3., .5 model of deductions takes such large chunks for even medium errors.

 

[JaJa]

Yes, I think this is what everyone is forgetting. We haven’t really seen a post Marta, Simoneless USA team. 2017 was very much still a product of the Martha era and then things got weird because of the Olympic delay.

We went through a similar period after 2004 when Khorkina retired and Arkaev went. And that whole quad was a disaster.

But I will say this, because I’ve always said it when this topic is raised. No country has ever maintained a dominant WAG program whilst being nice to the athletes. We might not like it, but it’s true.

100% agree

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

The wider situation of no one being able to beat Biles even when she has a kidney stone? That was more of a Biles thing than a rest of the field thing.

But yeah, the gymternet does like to complain.

Well it's the code too. There's always the issue of whether a fall deduction should be higher, particularly on vault where the landing is a higher percentage of the exercise iyswim. Obviously the Biles 1 is a phenomenally difficult vault, and Simone did it with pretty good form, but it was also nowhere close to being stood up. It would be possible to have a scoring system that doesn't basically neutralise failing at such a large part of the exercise, we just didn't. I think the optics would be different if she'd been perhaps half a point behind the DTY pack on vault.

 

[phoenix7]

But I will say this, because I’ve always said it when this topic is raised. No country has ever maintained a dominant WAG program whilst being nice to the athletes. We might not like it, but it’s true.

That's an interesting thought but leaves me with two (genuine) questions

How often has it been tried - being nice to athletes? I suppose we've had a maximum of five dominant teams in the history of WAG - USSR, USA, Russia, Romania, China. When did the niceness kick in for any of them? Just USA post ... 2018? 2021? Have less dominant programmes - Netherlands, UK, France, Japan, Brazil - been any nicer, historically?

And does the same apply to MAG?

 

[rlayt]

Words like nice don’t really define what kind of treatment we mean. If you are the manager of a program, the coach of an athlete, or many other positions you need to be fair, impartial and hold people accountable. You can run a program without abuse. But you don’t have to be stereotypically “nice” or be their friend. It’s more of a parental or boss/employee relationship than friendship.

I think there’s a way to hold athletes responsible and get the job done without abuse or that stereotypical niceness.

 

[Aeris]

There's always the issue of whether a fall deduction should be higher, particularly on vault where the landing is a higher percentage of the exercise

A higher deduction for falling on vault would be fair, but Biles was so far ahead of the field in 2018 that she deserved to win anyway. In the instance of Ferrari winning with a fall, it was a strange competition where people were trying to figure out the biggest set of rule changes ever.

Melniknova's gymnastics was not at the level where she should be scored as having a 1 point fall cushion over everyone else and I don't think the fall itself even matters in terms of her deserving to lose the competition. Her beam was a mess and would've been majorly deducted for the huge steps and balance checks on the Layout, in the absence of outright falling on it. That already should have placed her behind Leanne.

I had Yang in silver, Skye in bronze, McDonald in 4th, and Melnikova in 5th (losing a tiebreak).

What is your exact E-score breakdown for Skye's routine? Already though this is in alignment with the premise - Skye on the podium and a .4 differential between her and Melnikova compared to what they received.