Warning about US WAG program.

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Many abused gymnasts were successful (but at what cost?) and many well-adjusted gymnasts didn't have the same external successes, but since they were well-adjusted they dealt with it in a healthy manner.

 

[Passion]

How do we even know that there aren't standards being set? USAG was originally planning on sending two athletes to both the Varna and Osijek World Cups this year. They only ended up sending one to each: Jayla Hang to Osijek, Nola Matthews to Varna. Did not enough athletes meet the standard to be sent out on an assignment?

They also sent six seniors to Jesolo from that camp, but there were several gymnasts left who didn't get anything, and two spots left unused. The only person competing who was not vying for an assignment was Rivera.

 

[KristyJ]

I feel like there is a lot to unpack on this thread, but I find myself agreeing with most of you even when it sounds like you're approaching it from different angles. A lot of these things can be true at the same time.

 

[Aeris]

I think of the situation of Szekely where she decided in the spur of the moment to go for the big dismount and not for the safer route that the coaches wanted. She didn't blame them for her demise - instead she took ownership of the decision.

I think this deserves to still be called out as a coaching deficiency, because I am sure they told her to do a flyaway instead. It's seemingly a deficiency of every coach in existence, because there are options for B and C rated dismounts without salto and none of them are being taught, when it should be something every gymnast is aware of, both for a situation like this and because those dismounts are less deduction prone.

In fact, 2 of these dismounts are open for gymnasts to get named after them - Stalder and Inbar entrance into a single twist without salto have yet to be performed. Only the hip circle and clear-hip entrances are in the code.

 

[cuuf]

Really simple, Simone Biles. That's it, for the last 10+ years, the US has had the benefit of the greatest women's gymnast of all time. She was the constant X factor when it came to international team competition. She is gone, there is no-one that can replace her or approach her abilities, probably not in our lifetimes. That is all. Nothing to do with "cancel culture" or being "soft" on gymnasts.

 

[Sasha]

I think the fact that the US won TF at Worlds in 2022 by over three points suggests that it doesn't just boil down to Simone.

 

[MaryClare]

Really simple, Simone Biles. That's it, for the last 10+ years, the US has had the benefit of the greatest women's gymnast of all time. She was the constant X factor when it came to international team competition. She is gone, there is no-one that can replace her or approach her abilities, probably not in our lifetimes. That is all. Nothing to do with "cancel culture" or being "soft" on gymnasts.

Yes, I think this is what everyone is forgetting. We haven’t really seen a post Marta, Simoneless USA team. 2017 was very much still a product of the Martha era and then things got weird because of the Olympic delay.

We went through a similar period after 2004 when Khorkina retired and Arkaev went. And that whole quad was a disaster.

But I will say this, because I’ve always said it when this topic is raised. No country has ever maintained a dominant WAG program whilst being nice to the athletes. We might not like it, but it’s true.

 

[OnlyBeansOnToast]

No country has ever maintained a dominant WAG program whilst being nice to the athletes. We might not like it, but it’s true.

Probably true of dominant teams in pretty much any sport. The almost-unique problem that WAG has is that the elite athletes in question are often literal children when the not-being-nice is going on, and I have the crazy woke liberal snowflake notion that physically and/or mentally breaking a thousand teenage girls in order to craft one Olympic contender is... Not good.

 

[MaryClare]

Probably true of dominant teams in pretty much any sport. The almost-unique problem that WAG has is that the elite athletes in question are often literal children when the not-being-nice is going on, and I have the crazy woke liberal snowflake notion that physically and/or mentally breaking a thousand teenage girls in order to craft one Olympic contender is... Not good.

I don’t think that makes you a crazy woke liberal snowflake. But what we want is not always the reality. The other thing we have to consider is that athletes can have completely different experiences with the same coaches. Contrast say, Kim Zmeskal with other Karolyi gymnasts of the time. As the saying goes, recollections may vary.

 

[Sanzhirovka]

We went through a similar period after 2004 when Khorkina retired and Arkaev went. And that whole quad was a disaster.

Arkaev leaving hurt Russia? Seriously? lol

 

[MaryClare]

Arkaev leaving hurt Russia? Seriously? lol

Not in the long run, but the immediate period was one of huge change and also a huge amount of talent that was never realised. I’ve never known Russia to have such a large pool of top gymnasts, yet of the 1989-1992 crop, only Semenova and Afanasyeva had any sort of success at senior level. Pavlova hugely underachieved on a personal level, but carried the team. Then you had Zamo, completely physically broken but pressured to stay on and Yezhova who was begged to come back. A situation that should have been impossible if you looked at the 2006 junior euros results

 

[JaJa]

I think the fact that the US won TF at Worlds in 2022 by over three points suggests that it doesn't just boil down to Simone.

and the US WAG was dominant before Simone. So Simone is not really the issue.

 

[Hatsumomo]

I think the USA got complacent while Simone was active. World and Olympic teams were built around her. She was the factor that more or less guaranteed team gold. Therefore, TPTB didn't do the work they really should have done in preparation for the post-Marta era that they would have otherwise done if Simone never saw that sports psychologist and got it together by 2013 (or just not existed).

 

[JaJa]

I think the USA got complacent while Simone was active. World and Olympic teams were built around her. She was the factor that more or less guaranteed team gold. Therefore, TPTB didn't do the work they really should have done in preparation for the post-Marta era that they would have otherwise done if Simone never saw that sports psychologist and got it together by 2013 (or just not existed).

there may be some truth to that

 

[Sasha]

I think the USA got complacent while Simone was active. World and Olympic teams were built around her. She was the factor that more or less guaranteed team gold. Therefore, TPTB didn't do the work they really should have done in preparation for the post-Marta era that they would have otherwise done if Simone never saw that sports psychologist and got it together by 2013 (or just not existed).

Tom Forster certainly did!