The worlds that never happened

[MaryClare]

I think at 14/15, top elite gymnasts should be there or thereabouts when it comes to full difficulty. It is much harder to learn skills as you get older, but it’s easier to maintain them. What was ridiculous was 11-13 year old compete senior level routines. Fortunately that doesn’t really happen anymore.

Bad form and poor basics are always a choice and doesn’t have to go hand in hand with high difficulty at a young age. Anna Pavlova competed at 2 junior euros, the first time when she was still 12.

 

[RedBirdie]

Moceanu never competed at the senior level as a junior, interestingly enough.

 

[RichardL]

Moceanu never competed at the senior level as a junior, interestingly enough.

Although she was still only thirteen years old when she won Nationals in 1995. She was then only barely age eligible for Worlds in 1997.

 

[IratePanda]

Moceanu never competed at the senior level as a junior, interestingly enough.

Didn't she compete as a senior in 1995, when she was just 14? I think a lot of 1981-born WAG were fast-tracked that year because they were eligible for Atlanta. Doni Thompson and Kristen Maloney also competed as seniors.

 

[IratePanda]

Although she was still only thirteen years old when she won Nationals in 1995. She was then only barely age eligible for Worlds in 1997.

GMTA!

 

[RichardL]

Atler and Moceanu were only five months apart, but the former had to wait until 1999 to compete at a Worlds or Olympics while the other had been to three by then.

 

[RichardL]

Atler and Moceanu were only five months apart, but the former had to wait until 1999 to compete at a Worlds or Olympics while the other had been to three by then.

and continuing this train of thought, it's very easy to imagine Atler onto the 1995 World team and in the mix for Atlanta if she'd been born just six weeks earlier.

 

[irichluck21]

In 1995, technical Juniors were allowed to compete as long as they were senior eligible for the Olympics. The Pre Olympics Worlds allowed juniors to compete with seniors int he Pre Olympic year with 2008 being the last IIRC.

Also in 1995, Kristy Powell really shouldn't have won the American Cup. She was fortunate of extremely lucky circumstances that allowed her to win.
She did win prelims, however Miller's fall on beam gave her the win and eliminated Miller. Likely had Miller not fallen off beam, she would have qualified tied with Powell for the prelim win. I would assume that had Miller hit 4 for 4 in finals she would have won.

Powell deserved her win, obviously, but that win also put tremendous pressure on her.
There were 8 US ladies that competed in prelims that year. Aside from Powell, Miller, and Borden, also competing were Mina Kim, Jaycie, Phelps, Amy Chow (9.150 beam), Doni Thompson, and Mary Beth Arnold.

Interestingly enough, Moceanu never competed at an American Cup. I wonder why Dawes and Moceanu didn't compete here, was it because they were chosen with Kelle Davis and Katie Teft to compete at the USA-BLR-CHN meet instead?

 

[IratePanda]

In 1995, technical Juniors were allowed to compete as long as they were senior eligible for the Olympics. The Pre Olympics Worlds allowed juniors to compete with seniors int he Pre Olympic year with 2008 being the last IIRC.

Also in 1995, Kristy Powell really shouldn't have won the American Cup. She was fortunate of extremely lucky circumstances that allowed her to win.
She did win prelims, however Miller's fall on beam gave her the win and eliminated Miller. Likely had Miller not fallen off beam, she would have qualified tied with Powell for the prelim win. I would assume that had Miller hit 4 for 4 in finals she would have won.

Powell deserved her win, obviously, but that win also put tremendous pressure on her.
There were 8 US ladies that competed in prelims that year. Aside from Powell, Miller, and Borden, also competing were Mina Kim, Jaycie, Phelps, Amy Chow (9.150 beam), Doni Thompson, and Mary Beth Arnold.

Interestingly enough, Moceanu never competed at an American Cup. I wonder why Dawes and Moceanu didn't compete here, was it because they were chosen with Kelle Davis and Katie Teft to compete at the USA-BLR-CHN meet instead?

Maybe. I think Dawes was also coming back from the injury that kept her out of '95 Worlds.

 

[Aizheng]

I think at 14/15, top elite gymnasts should be there or thereabouts when it comes to full difficulty. It is much harder to learn skills as you get older, but it’s easier to maintain them. What was ridiculous was 11-13 year old compete senior level routines. Fortunately that doesn’t really happen anymore.

Bad form and poor basics are always a choice and doesn’t have to go hand in hand with high difficulty at a young age. Anna Pavlova competed at 2 junior euros, the first time when she was still 12.

Is that actually true? I mean, many men don’t start getting some of their skills until after puberty and rushing people through skills before puberty for women has been problematic at least, since many times, they need to relearn their skills for their new bodies.

As women careers have extended, they have also learned new skills later. Jade Carey learned a Bhardwaj, a layout double double, a Y1.5 etc as an adult.

I guess it also depends on how one defines “full difficulty”. Simone Biles for instance probably did all skills she performed in quad 2 as a junior already, but not with hard landings. Would you consider her to have “full difficulty” at 16 already?

 

[flappergirl]

Johnson placed third at 1990 US Nationals behind Zmeskal and Okino. She would have been second if Zmeskal had competed as a junior. It's been ages since I watrched this competition, but I remember feeling that all of Karolyi's gymnasts received some major gifts while Johnson was lowballed even when she hit. Bear in mind, though, this was 36 years ago, and I was/am extremely biased.

Based on Nationals results, the Worlds team might have looked like this:

Okino (first-year senior)
Johnson
Woolsey
Scherr (first-year senior)
Kelly
Simkins, Heinrich, or Stack

Not a particularly strong team, but they might have squeaked into third behind the USSR and China.

Brandy was better than her record showed. She’d get deductions on skills that other people would do worse and score better. This was true both nationally and internationally. This is just from my memory.

 

[RichardL]

I just rewatched 1990 Nationals and Johnson was the best gymnast of the meet. She just fell on optional beam and jumped out of bounds on her (gorgeous) opening floor pass.

 

[MaryClare]

Is that actually true? I mean, many men don’t start getting some of their skills until after puberty and rushing people through skills before puberty for women has been problematic at least, since many times, they need to relearn their skills for their new bodies.

As women careers have extended, they have also learned new skills later. Jade Carey learned a Bhardwaj, a layout double double, a Y1.5 etc as an adult.

I guess it also depends on how one defines “full difficulty”. Simone Biles for instance probably did all skills she performed in quad 2 as a junior already, but not with hard landings. Would you consider her to have “full difficulty” at 16 already?

Yes it’s true. I don’t mean their full difficulty, which can only be examined retrospectively. I mean that at 14/15 they should be doing routines that are roughly at senior level. Not that they are performing at their ceiling.

If we look at the gymnasts who’ve had long and successful careers, they were almost all performing senior level routines as juniors. Andrade, Melnikova, Ferrari, Murakami, Chiles. Jade Carey is of course a major outlier because she never competed elite as a junior

 

[RichardL]

The absence of this trend is very present in today's US juniors. The routines are often nicely performed but there's not enough to them that indicates strong senior elite careers. Mostly just pre-NCAA IMO.

 

[MaryClare]

The absence of this trend is very present in today's US juniors. The routines are often nicely performed but there's not enough to them that indicates strong senior elite careers. Mostly just pre-NCAA IMO.

You are being too kind. They are not well performed.

 

[IratePanda]

I just rewatched 1990 Nationals and Johnson was the best gymnast of the meet. She just fell on optional beam and jumped out of bounds on her (gorgeous) opening floor pass.

This reaffirms my feelings when I watched the competition live (or tape-delayed, w/e). I suspected that Karolyi and the judges wanted to hound Johnson into early retirement.

I wish she'd had a longer career. She was so enjoyable to watch. But I know she had her reasons for retiring at 17--chronic injuries, some fear issues, maybe a stalker (forgive me if I'm misremembering). Also, if she'd made it to Barcelona, she might have had a miserable experience because the coaches were such control freaks.

 

[Matilda23]

I’d read about Shawn Johnson’s stalker but never heard about Brandy’s - anyone remember more details?

 

[Aizheng]

Yes it’s true. I don’t mean their full difficulty, which can only be examined retrospectively. I mean that at 14/15 they should be doing routines that are roughly at senior level. Not that they are performing at their ceiling.

If we look at the gymnasts who’ve had long and successful careers, they were almost all performing senior level routines as juniors. Andrade, Melnikova, Ferrari, Murakami, Chiles. Jade Carey is of course a major outlier because she never competed elite as a junior

I agree that this has been the trend, but is it because it used to be common wisdom that talented kids would need to gain skills quickly and have competitive routines by 15, or because there is no other way?

Very difficult to figure out until we have a generation of gymnasts that were trained to not have senior level routines in competition by 15. I would guess that they need to at least be training some of these skills, building the flexibility and stamina to get through full senior routines by puberty. These two elements seem most difficult to gain as an adult.

There also seems to be something for having basic mechanics down. You rarely see adult gymnasts “branch” out to skills they have never done, instead upgrades tend to be incremental, which makes sense. Women don’t suddenly show up with in-bars (also a flexibility thing, I guess), and even on floor, it’s clear that people gravitate to certain skills like shilese jones doing tucked twisting, not a double layout. I’ve also not seen anyone (except jade, of course) learn a new vault entry as an adult, as far as I remember.

I wish I knew more about MAG and how skill acquisition works there. They seem to have a larger focus on basics and discouraging big skills as a junior, as juniors won’t be competitive with seniors due to lack of muscle etc.

 

[RichardL]

There also seems to be something for having basic mechanics down. You rarely see adult gymnasts “branch” out to skills they have never done, instead upgrades tend to be incremental, which makes sense. Women don’t suddenly show up with in-bars (also a flexibility thing, I guess), and even on floor, it’s clear that people gravitate to certain skills like shilese jones doing tucked twisting, not a double layout. I’ve also not seen anyone (except jade, of course) learn a new vault entry as an adult, as far as I remember.

Jones's most recent competitive floor routine included a double layout, but I get your point!



I'm trying to think of other gymnasts who debuted elements from previous uncompeted root skills later in their careers. Chiles did front twisting only in the Tokyo Olympic year (to disastrous effect in TF obviously) that I can recall. Vault is going to be very rare.

 

[Concorde]

I’ve also not seen anyone (except jade, of course) learn a new vault entry as an adult, as far as I remember.

Bhardwaj added a round off 1/2-on entry vault during her 2004 comeback and I believe Yang Yun vaulted a 1 1/2 twisting Yurchenko in 2003 when she had previously competed front handspring and Tsukahara entry vaults.