Indonesia cancels visas of Israeli worlds team

[MaryClare]

I am curious as to the rationale behind deleting posts. For this being a dying form of interaction for fans that many of us enjoy you would think we could handle talking about the political components of the situation at hand even if we do not agree. I for one did not see anything that would be detrimental to the board, not more so than deleting peoples posts anyway.

Is there anyway to bring Off Topic back? Instead of deleting you could reassign threads to Off Topic.

Definitely no off topic forum!!

 

[makam]

If they can't/won't/don't cancel, I think the Israeli athletes should be able to submit a video competition. Stick the camera where the judge would be and let them have 1 viewing. Score it and submit. If one of the Israelis medals, put their flag on the podium step on a pole and present the medal to the flag. Or else put an asterisk next to every medal to indicate it wasn't a fully attended (according to the rules and any previous FIG actions) Worlds.

 

[Denn]

I am curious as to the rationale behind deleting posts. For this being a dying form of interaction for fans that many of us enjoy you would think we could handle talking about the political components of the situation at hand even if we do not agree. I for one did not see anything that would be detrimental to the board, not more so than deleting peoples posts anyway.

Is there anyway to bring Off Topic back? Instead of deleting you could reassign threads to Off Topic.

Our forum's purpose is to be a place to discuss gymnastics and things related to gymnastics because the internet already has thousands of places to discuss political and humanitarian issues. To be fair, threads like this are always challenging: when is a specific comment "on topic" vs. "off topic"? There's gray area, and we usually try to be generous with as well as set a line or two in advance so that it avoids getting hairy.

That has happened in this thread, and both Robin and Robin, as moderators, already pointed to concerns about what's on-topic vs. what's outside of what we do here. The deletion of posts by RedBirdie was consistent with what was said earlier, and it was intended to prevent additional talk about the conflict itself so that this thread could focus on the participation of the Israeli athletes and Indonesia and FIG's approaches.

I understand that you may an Off Topic forum, but that's not in the cards for us here. There are many here who don't want it, and they're basing it on years of experience at various forums, gymnastics and otherwise. This thread may not have been detrimental to you, but it has already caused some people stress even with the limits we've tried to observe.

We have a goal and we're trying to stick to it.

Thanks everyone.

 

[IratePanda]

Personally, I feel safe here, as an American Jew with complex views on multiple issues. Kudos all around.

 

[MaryClare]

Our forum's purpose is to be a place to discuss gymnastics and things related to gymnastics because the internet already has thousands of places to discuss political and humanitarian issues. To be fair, threads like this are always challenging: when is a specific comment "on topic" vs. "off topic"? There's gray area, and we usually try to be generous with as well as set a line or two in advance so that it avoids getting hairy.

That has happened in this thread, and both Robin and Robin, as moderators, already pointed to concerns about what's on-topic vs. what's outside of what we do here. The deletion of posts by RedBirdie was consistent with what was said earlier, and it was intended to prevent additional talk about the conflict itself so that this thread could focus on the participation of the Israeli athletes and Indonesia and FIG's approaches.

I understand that you may an Off Topic forum, but that's not in the cards for us here. There are many here who don't want it, and they're basing it on years of experience at various forums, gymnastics and otherwise. This thread may not have been detrimental to you, but it has already caused some people stress even with the limits we've tried to observe.

We have a goal and we're trying to stick to it.

Thanks everyone.

Very well said Denn.

It continues to baffle me that people wish to discuss politics on a gymnastics message, although perhaps that is cultural. Politics is not a normal conversation here, either in person or online.

 

[OnoNoKomachi]

Per the FIG charter - Technically, they have to cancel the event, but because of 26.5, they will probably consider this an exceptional case and hold it.

It sucks, and my gut feeling is Indonesia pulled a bait and switch. Maybe they are telling the truth about the changes in the domestic situation. Only they know.

I'm not for cancelling the event this time, because that would punish people who had nothing to do with the problem, will not change Indonesia's ways, and will do nothing to further peace in the Middle East. Most of the Indonesian public would likely cheer on their government for letting a whole event get cancelled rather than giving Israelis visas.

As far as off-topic is concerned, I really enjoyed that forum when it was around, but I understand why there isn't one. Many special interest groups have restrictions on political discussions. Especially since 2020, there have been so many contentious topics on which many people have strong opinions that don't change no matter what. It could easily devolve into people yelling past each other.

 

[JaJa]

Per the FIG charter - Technically, they have to cancel the event, but because of 26.5, they will probably consider this an exceptional case and hold it.

It sucks, and my gut feeling is Indonesia pulled a bait and switch. Maybe they are telling the truth about the changes in the domestic situation. Only they know.

I'm not for cancelling the event this time, because that would punish people who had nothing to do with the problem, will not change Indonesia's ways, and will do nothing to further peace in the Middle East. Most of the Indonesian public would likely cheer on their government for letting a whole event get cancelled rather than giving Israelis visas.

As far as off-topic is concerned, I really enjoyed that forum when it was around, but I understand why there isn't one. Many special interest groups have restrictions on political discussions. Especially since 2020, there have been so many contentious topics on which many people have strong opinions that don't change no matter what. It could easily devolve into people yelling past each other.

View attachment 12723

I don't suppose there has been any attempt to define "exceptional cases." In the absence of some kind of limiting, defining language 26.5 just becomes one giant loophole.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

If the FIG had done it's due diligence and actually researched the current political situation in INA, and how they have attempted to exclude Israeli delegations from sporting events in the past (which resulted in the events being taken away from INA), all of this might have been avoided. The FIG will be the FIG and try to blame someone else for their own inability to follow their own rules.

 

[OnoNoKomachi]

I don't suppose there has been any attempt to define "exceptional cases." In the absence of some kind of limiting, defining language 26.5 just becomes one giant loophole.

That's it. Exceptional can mean whatever the FIG wants it too. I'd agree this is certainly an exceptional case if anything is.

I think the issue is that the FIG had a hard time finding hosts and the only two choices were Azerbaijan (bad for Armenia) and Indonesia.

It's not clear if Indonesia ever granted those visas, but apparently, they told the FIG they would.

Indonesia Refuses to Issue Visas to Israeli Athletes

Coordinating Minister Yusril Ihza Mahendra asserts Indonesia's stance on Israel.

en.tempo.co

If they never issued the visas in the first place, this was probably the plan all along. Just not do it until it's too late to cancel.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

There's also a reddit thread mooting the possibility of the event being held and results later annulled, which is an interesting thought experiment.

 

[KathySantoni]

So, Indonesia has cited protests and unrest as the reason for voiding the visas. Does anyone know if these protests were specifically against Israeli athletes at worlds? I get the impression that the protest were against the war, which many countries have had.

 

[MaryClare]

There's also a reddit thread mooting the possibility of the event being held and results later annulled, which is an interesting thought experiment.

That would be massively shit on everyone and why would you bother competing at your best