To Set or Not to Set, going up or whipping back is the question

[RedBirdie]

And since Chellsie Memmel was named above, behold her beautiful set on her double pike beam dismount at all three stages of her senior elite career. She hangs in the air before starting the rotation no matter how old she is or her body size. It's also why she could consistently land with her chest up or nearly up (no face in knees landings here!).

Besides that fact that she's an absolutely insane when it comes to conditioning regardless if she's competing or not, great technique like this is why she was able to come back to the elite level multiple times.

2003


2011 (Comeback #1)


2021 (comeback #2)

 

[Hatsumomo]

Remember when she randomly showed up with a Sheep Jump in 2011? It basically looked like this.

From 2005 but it still looked the same:

 

[Aizheng]

Setting a salto has nothing to do with axis rotation. Setting only happens during the vertical stage of a salto. Or it should. The process is exactly the same if the salto has twists or not and this is very evident in gymnasts that have very good technique. Probably the best recently is Andrade.

Maurice Yeadon’s 1993 paper is the most used academic piece on teaching the theory of this to coaches. He shows the equation of time from the feet leaving the ground to the optimum height of the salto to begin axis rotation.

I am not explaining this well at all, but I hope you can understand what I mean!

Thanks everyone, this has really helped.

I understand @MaryClare that setting is independent of axis, but it seems to me that you have to „delay“ twisting if you’re setting correctly. If you were twisting right from the get-go, you will not be able to set, correct? Biomechanically, I can not imagine how you would set correctly while also twisting from the ground, and all the examples I’ve seen of people twisting early, they do not get enough height.

 

[RedBirdie]

For comparison, Hezly Rivera also barely sets her double pike. She somehow manages to whip it around, but almost always lands with her chest very low, and sometimes just doesn't make it all the way around at all.

If you slow the payback down on these videos and the Chellsie ones, you can really see the difference on take off. Chellise's arms are extended above her head, reaching to the ceiling, and she jumps more up than back. Hezley has bent arms that are immediately thrown out to the side with her momentum going backwards more the vertical.

(yes, it is harder to do a double pike from 2 BHS than a roundoff. It doesn't change the fact that Hezly's set is absolute garbage. Her problem is not that she's doing 2 backhandsprings into a double pike, it's that she has no set)

2023 Winter Cup


2024 US Classic


2025 nationals

 

[MaryClare]

Thanks everyone, this has really helped.

I understand @MaryClare that setting is independent of axis, but it seems to me that you have to „delay“ twisting if you’re setting correctly. If you were twisting right from the get-go, you will not be able to set, correct? Biomechanically, I can not imagine how you would set correctly while also twisting from the ground, and all the examples I’ve seen of people twisting early, they do not get enough height.

Yes exactly. You can’t set and twist at the same time. It’s a difficult thing to teach, because timing is everything and you often can have gymnasts who can set a layout salto beautifully but struggle to feel when to begin the twist. What I often see here which is interesting is that we have some coaches who are great at coaching the biomechanics of tumbling but are not necessarily the best at spotting tumbling. And if they don’t have a good spotter within the coaching team, all that work goes out the window because by spotting incorrectly you are conditioning the gymnast to perform it in a certain way.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Y'all don't think this fabulous back "tuck" deserved a gold medal?! lol
View attachment 14052

I caused sooooo many tantrums on gymworld in 08 posting screenshots from that skill!

 

[Puffin]

I caused sooooo many tantrums on gymworld in 08 posting screenshots from that skill!

I was just about to say that I remember the Gymworld arguments about that!

 

[RedBirdie]

From 2005 but it still looked the same: View attachment 14053

I don't think we talk enough about how freaking lucky Chow was to have Shawn land in his gym one day, nor how lucky both of them were that the code was so insanely forgiving of her eyesore poor technique and bad skill selection. Without Shawn, Gabby Douglas never goes there. Without Shawn, he's just some coach in Iowa that gets a couple kids to elite but can't keep them healthy and they never amount to much--like so many other coaches in the US.

 

[RichardL]

I don't think we talk enough about how freaking lucky Chow was to have Shawn land in his gym one day, nor how lucky both of them were that the code was so insanely forgiving of her eyesore poor technique and bad skill selection. Without Shawn, Gabby Douglas never goes there. Without Shawn, he's just some coach in Iowa that gets a couple kids to elite but can't keep them healthy and they never amount to much--like so many other coaches in the US.

Definitely one of the most depressing COPs of all time, resulting in some really unfortunate results. The rampant C side passes on floor (Izbasa and Johnson did 5-pass routines!) still drives me crazy watching videos all these years later. At least the Olympic AA winner performed gymnastics that I can still stomach.

 

[eanda]

At least her toes are pointed.

It's those little details that make the difference!

I caused sooooo many tantrums on gymworld in 08 posting screenshots from that skill!

Ha! I was gone by then. Sorry I missed out on this!

Back in the day, I would sometimes watch Johnson's back tuck over and over, completely fascinated that someone who had reached her level could do this skill so horrendously.

 

[RedBirdie]

Definitely one of the most depressing COPs of all time, resulting in some really unfortunate results. The rampant C side passes on floor (Izbasa and Johnson did 5-pass routines!) still drives me crazy watching videos all these years later. At least the Olympic AA winner performed gymnastics that I can still stomach.

Daria Joura's stunning floor routine was marred by doing five passes. Even if she did manage to move out of that side pass beatifully.

 

[Kittentoes]

Thanks everyone, this has really helped.

I understand @MaryClare that setting is independent of axis, but it seems to me that you have to „delay“ twisting if you’re setting correctly. If you were twisting right from the get-go, you will not be able to set, correct? Biomechanically, I can not imagine how you would set correctly while also twisting from the ground, and all the examples I’ve seen of people twisting early, they do not get enough height.

Yes. If you watch some older footage on from the late 70s and early 80s you can see several gymnasts struggling to set their double twists on the very hard floors. They will start cranking around almost as soon as their feet are off the floor. It makes for some very messy and frantic tumbling.

 

[MaryClare]

Definitely one of the most depressing COPs of all time, resulting in some really unfortunate results. The rampant C side passes on floor (Izbasa and Johnson did 5-pass routines!) still drives me crazy watching videos all these years later. At least the Olympic AA winner performed gymnastics that I can still stomach.

I think Ferrari did 6 passes at one point?

 

[MaryClare]

I had to sit through this and I refuse to suffer alone. Sorry guys

 

[IratePanda]

I had to sit through this and I refuse to suffer alone. Sorry guys

She stopped tumbling just long enough to direct flights to the nearest airport.

I'm blanking on the gymnast's name, but wasn't there a South Korean who did seven passes?

 

[IratePanda]

For comparison, Hezly Rivera also barely sets her double pike. She somehow manages to whip it around, but almost always lands with her chest very low, and sometimes just doesn't make it all the way around at all.

If you slow the payback down on these videos and the Chellsie ones, you can really see the difference on take off. Chellise's arms are extended above her head, reaching to the ceiling, and she jumps more up than back. Hezley has bent arms that are immediately thrown out to the side with her momentum going backwards more the vertical.

(yes, it is harder to do a double pike from 2 BHS than a roundoff. It doesn't change the fact that Hezly's set is absolute garbage. Her problem is not that she's doing 2 backhandsprings into a double pike, it's that she has no set)

2023 Winter Cup


2024 US Classic


2025 nationals

Isn't Chellsie still the Technical Lead for USA WAG? Can she do anything to fix Hezly's block?

 

[MaryClare]

Isn't Chellsie still the Technical Lead for USA WAG? Can she do anything to fix Hezly's block?

Like she fixed Roberson’s everything?

 

[RAFIKI]

I'm blanking on the gymnast's name, but wasn't there a South Korean who did seven passes?

I feel dirty posting this. Watch at your own risk.

 

[IratePanda]

Like she fixed Roberson’s everything?

Oof. Fair.

 

[Hatsumomo]

Definitely one of the most depressing COPs of all time, resulting in some really unfortunate results. The rampant C side passes on floor (Izbasa and Johnson did 5-pass routines!) still drives me crazy watching videos all these years later. At least the Olympic AA winner performed gymnastics that I can still stomach.

That CoP was a mess. I wonder how much thought and planning was put into the open-ended code before rolling it out.