To Set or Not to Set, going up or whipping back is the question

[makam]

I'm putting this here because only Japan has announced their teams.



I know Nishiyama Misa is supposed to be the next big thing, but I'm not that impressed. Some big skills, but also lots of bent knees and flexed feet. Her 2.5 off beam looks like an ACL tear waiting to happen.

She's got no set on that beam dismount. Just flings it around. (interestingly I saw a video on the facebook that showed Rebeca Andrade's beam dismount and then showed Chellsie Memmel's beam dismount and Andrade also had no set, just flung into the double pike. But it might have been old because I just went back and looked at her paris beam and she has a good set before rotating there so she must have cleaned up her technique). Nishiyama needs to clean up her technique.

I didn't find her knees too bent compared to some but her FX was not my favorite. Maybe she was gassed by the time FX rolled around--but it was nothing that made me pay attention.

 

[RichardL]

She's got no set on that beam dismount. Just flings it around. (interestingly I saw a video on the facebook that showed Rebeca Andrade's beam dismount and then showed Chellsie Memmel's beam dismount and Andrade also had no set, just flung into the double pike. But it might have been old because I just went back and looked at her paris beam and she has a good set before rotating there so she must have cleaned up her technique). Nishiyama needs to clean up her technique.

I didn't find her knees too bent compared to some but her FX was not my favorite. Maybe she was gassed by the time FX rolled around--but it was nothing that made me pay attention.

Chellsie Memmel is the absolute queen of set though, no one else really compares!

 

[Aizheng]

On that note, can anyone explain what “set” means? I’ve seen it thrown around a lot, but have not been able to understand.

My current understanding is that “set” is what gets you the height, so if you convert your energy correctly upwards, you would fly in the air (like Simone Biles), as opposed to Mykayla Skinner, for example, who usually starts twisting right when she starts? Is that roughly correct?

But how does that work in a skill where there’s no twisting?

 

[MaryClare]

But how does that work in a skill where there’s no twisting?

Setting a salto has nothing to do with axis rotation. Setting only happens during the vertical stage of a salto. Or it should. The process is exactly the same if the salto has twists or not and this is very evident in gymnasts that have very good technique. Probably the best recently is Andrade.

Maurice Yeadon’s 1993 paper is the most used academic piece on teaching the theory of this to coaches. He shows the equation of time from the feet leaving the ground to the optimum height of the salto to begin axis rotation.

I am not explaining this well at all, but I hope you can understand what I mean!

 

[rlayt]

We had a great explanation on the old board.

 

[RichardL]

Another good place to find an example of a strong set is to watch gymnasts who compete triple backs. You can't rotate a triple back without an expert set. Watch as he goes vertical from the floor until he's almost at his highest, then begins the rotation. (1:53 in slow motion below) Memmel does this in her double pikes off beam and on floor as well. A hint that the set is poor is watching a gymnast throw her head and shoulders back when rebounding up, rather than holding the head square with the shoulders to maximize height.

 

[makam]

Maybe it was Barbosa not Andrade that I thought had a poor set. I think this was the video: https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1B7oZG5UA6/ but she isn't the only one in the video. Chellsie really was class of the field on the double pike dismount. Rebeca gets them around, but her head is back basically as soon as she punches off the beam.

(If people want to keep giving examples and stuff, maybe we should break off to a different thread?)

 

[Hatsumomo]

An example of poor set is Shawn Johnson. She relied heavily on her natural power and short stature to get her saltos around. Compare her back full on beam with Gabby Douglas'. Shawn landed with her chest on her thighs and nearly kneeing herself in the face whereas Gabby generally landed with her chest parallel to the beam.

ETA: I have time, added comparison screenshots:

 

[RAFIKI]

I remember lots of discussion after 2007 worlds about whether she’d be able to keep her straight back on beam if she grew. It travelled a lot and she was almost off the end in Stuttgart.

 

[Hatsumomo]

It didn't help that at the time, the Chinese were doing BHS-FF-LO and still had enough room to add in a Korbut. Drew a lot of comparisons.

 

[IratePanda]

It didn't help that at the time, the Chinese were doing BHS-FF-LO and still had enough room to add in a Korbut. Drew a lot of comparisons.

It's been a while since I watched this:



The Spanish commentator saying "Oh, God" twice after the fall is just the cherry on the sundae. And the fact that Li still beat Ponor for the silver is the ice cream and caramelized almonds.

And then we have this:



Obviously a much better performance, but still so clunky:

 

[Aeris]

There's a definite improvement in that 2008 routine, aside from the better landings. I think it's far less clunky than the robotic, forced "choreo" seen in most routines lately.

 

[RichardL]

There's a definite improvement in that 2008 routine, aside from the better landings. I think it's far less clunky than the robotic, forced "choreo" seen in most routines lately.

I don't mind the choreo because I hate so many other things about the routine. It's so embarrassing that we have an Olympic champion who does a back tuck like that.

 

[IratePanda]

There's a definite improvement in that 2008 routine, aside from the better landings. I think it's far less clunky than the robotic, forced "choreo" seen in most routines lately.

Hard disagree.

I dearly wish that Li Shanshan hadn't fallen in the '08 beam final.

Wow, this thread has really gone in a bunch of different directions!

 

[MaryClare]

I remember lots of discussion after 2007 worlds about whether she’d be able to keep her straight back on beam if she grew. It travelled a lot and she was almost off the end in Stuttgart.

If you look at the angle of her hips when she takes off, she is usually the same technique as a whip which of course it designed to travel. She doesn’t fully extend her hips until she is at maximum height. Which she got away with when she was short, because it didn’t cause her to travel very far and she had enough time to land the skill relatively upright

 

[Kara]

Y'all don't think this fabulous back "tuck" deserved a gold medal?! lol

 

[MaryClare]

Y'all don't think this fabulous back "tuck" deserved a gold medal?! lol
View attachment 14052

Wow. Thats even worse than I remember it

 

[IratePanda]

At least her toes are pointed.

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

Y'all don't think this fabulous back "tuck" deserved a gold medal?! lol
View attachment 14052

Remember when she randomly showed up with a Sheep Jump in 2011? It basically looked like this.

 

[Hatsumomo]

I always found it such a shame that her technique and flexibility were so poor because she did have so much natural power and good form. If those things had been fixed early on, she could have had the sort of career she wouldn't need to feel to lie about.