DLO to Shushunova

[Aeris]

the DLO to straddle is absolutely no bueno

She needs to do it as a shushunova!

I doubt the Nabs on bars is a good direction for her, but her current 5.6D is certainly not something she should remain satisfied with.

 

[Doug1233]

She needs to do it as a shushunova!

I doubt the Nabs on bars is a good direction for her, but her current 5.6D is certainly not something she should remain satisfied with.

DLO to shushanova is a full body OOB waiting to happen lol.

Dulcy can make teams because she can hit a 55 AA and everyone else falls apart under pressure. These upgrades are just going to make it less likely that she can hit when it counts.

 

[Aeris]

DLO to shushanova is a full body OOB waiting to happen lol.

Only if you don't jump forward from the landing. It's an easier connection to control than a regular split jump or a salto.

I don't think Dulcy being consistent with her current level of difficulty is good enough to make the Olympics. Or at least, I hope that's not the state the program is in within the next 2 years.

 

[Doug1233]

Only if you don't jump forward from the landing. It's an easier connection to control than a regular split jump or a salto.

I don't think Dulcy being consistent with her current level of difficulty is good enough to make the Olympics. Or at least, I hope that's not the state the program is in within the next 2 years.

You’re probably right for LA. But she could make a worlds team.

She really needs a vault if she wants to make it to LA. Like a Cheng. I wonder if they’re training a second entry. Her DTY is pretty good.

 

[crdubb17]

Only if you don't jump forward from the landing. It's an easier connection to control than a regular split jump or a salto.

I don't think Dulcy being consistent with her current level of difficulty is good enough to make the Olympics. Or at least, I hope that's not the state the program is in within the next 2 years.

I feel like we've had this conversation before. I promise you NOBODY will ever be doing a Shushunova out of a double flipping anything lol.

 

[KristyJ]

Only if you don't jump forward from the landing. It's an easier connection to control than a regular split jump or a salto.

The problem with trying to push a Shushunova forward out of a double salto is you need an angle that could be ankle-crunching to ensure it goes the right direction. It doesn't sound achilles friendly.

 

[Aeris]

You don't need any different of an angle than trying to do a front tuck forward, the totally standard way of doing that connection...

 

[RichardL]

You don't need any different of an angle than trying to do a front tuck forward, the totally standard way of doing that connection...

This routine (featuring both examples) shows you why that is not necessarily true.

 

[Aeris]

This routine (featuring both examples) shows you why that is not necessarily true.

Overshooting her tumble before the shush this one time isn't much of an argument. She was also trying to do it with an unnecessary amount of height. There's been a far higher rate of people messing up their attempted salto connections, or taking hops on the landing (an impossibility for a shush). If you are able to rebound forward with a front tuck out of a given landing, then you could have done a simple non-salto plank jump instead.

If we're trying to analyze the possible ankle complications of plank jumping out of landings, then it needs to be compared to the impact of trying to stick landings, which is the alternative. I do not see sticking as easier, both in terms of success rate and the impact on the body.

 

[irichluck21]

The Elise Ray example isn't a very strong one IMO. Multiple gymnasts had complained about how hard the Sydney floor was. There were a ton of out of bounds errors through the floor routines. Jamie Dantzscher struggled with her punch front out of the double layout in prelims for example. Simona Amanar stepped out of bounds in floor finals, Lisa Skinner sat her punch of out the 2 1/2. Raducan undercooked her punch front out of the 2 1/2 in floor finals-though that could have been a mental error due to the all around positive drug test fiasco.

 

[RichardL]

The Elise Ray example isn't a very strong one IMO. Multiple gymnasts had complained about how hard the Sydney floor was. There were a ton of out of bounds errors through the floor routines. Jamie Dantzscher struggled with her punch front out of the double layout in prelims for example. Simona Amanar stepped out of bounds in floor finals, Lisa Skinner sat her punch of out the 2 1/2. Raducan undercooked her punch front out of the 2 1/2 in floor finals-though that could have been a mental error due to the all around positive drug test fiasco.

Sure, but Elise Ray also performed a punch front out of her first pass. My point is that the two entries (into a punch front and into a Shushunova) are not one and the same, as was claimed. The latter out of a double salto, for example, would indeed need to be ankle crunching to guarantee the correct rebound for a non-salto skill. Which maybe is why we've never seen it.

 

[Aeris]

That statement goes against the mechanics of how these moves operate...

When you connect out with a front tuck, no matter how you're executing it, you could simply just not do the salto part of the skill. Whatever force you're using to propel yourself into that front tuck, you could just not toss your legs over your head. So it becomes a normal jump, one that puts you into a plank position in the air (you're inherently leaning forward, if you were otherwise going to do a front tuck). A shush is just that movement with your legs being split on the way down.

 

[MaryClare]

That statement goes against the mechanics of how these moves operate...

When you connect out with a front tuck, no matter how you're executing it, you could simply just not do the salto part of the skill. Whatever force you're using to propel yourself into that front tuck, you could just not toss your legs over your head. So it becomes a normal jump, one that puts you into a plank position in the air (you're inherently leaning forward, if you were otherwise going to do a front tuck). A shush is just that movement with your legs being split on the way down.

You can’t just “not do the salto”. The set up for a salto is different than for a leap or jump. Therefore you need to land the preceding skill accordingly

 

[RichardL]

That statement goes against the mechanics of how these moves operate...

When you connect out with a front tuck, no matter how you're executing it, you could simply just not do the salto part of the skill. Whatever force you're using to propel yourself into that front tuck, you could just not toss your legs over your head. So it becomes a normal jump, one that puts you into a plank position in the air (you're inherently leaning forward, if you were otherwise going to do a front tuck). A shush is just that movement with your legs being split on the way down.

This just isn't how that kind of skill or combination works as a gymnast. The physics of it alone are crazy to think about, especially as it relates to how the body reacts to that kind of force. Have you ever seen a gymnast bail on a direction-changing front salto? In the history of that kind of combination being performed, how many times have you seen someone "simply just not do the salto"?

ETA: I'm not referring to a Mattie Larson situation; the conversation was specifically opened discussing the possibility of a double layout into a Shushunova, ie reverse direction.

 

[MaryClare]

This just isn't how that kind of skill or combination works as a gymnast. The physics of it alone are crazy to think about, especially as it relates to how the body reacts to that kind of force. Have you ever seen a gymnast bail on a direction-changing front salto? In the history of that kind of combination being performed, how many times have you seen someone "simply just not do the salto"?

ETA: I'm not referring to a Mattie Larson situation; the conversation was specifically opened discussing the possibility of a double layout into a Shushunova, ie reverse direction.

Ah thank you, you’ve explained it so much better than my RG brain attempt

 

[crdubb17]

That statement goes against the mechanics of how these moves operate...

When you connect out with a front tuck, no matter how you're executing it, you could simply just not do the salto part of the skill. Whatever force you're using to propel yourself into that front tuck, you could just not toss your legs over your head. So it becomes a normal jump, one that puts you into a plank position in the air (you're inherently leaning forward, if you were otherwise going to do a front tuck). A shush is just that movement with your legs being split on the way down.

Have you ever done a belly drop on a trampoline? I recommend you go try it so you can understand. It takes a totally different level of control to do a back layout-belly drop than a back layout-punch front. It's not natural or intuitive to your body to rebound into that position, especially from coming out of a double somersault. Your rebound is much different on a double layout than from something like a rudi where you can get stretch and whip it out to control the rebound.

A Shushunova won't be coming out of this kind of rebound:

 

[Aeris]

You can’t just “not do the salto”.

Yes you can. When you're rebounding into a front tuck (or ever doing one in general), at that exact point where you're pressing down to start it, you don't need to do a salto. You can just do a simple jump if you wanted to, similar to how you can bail out of a double salto at the start and do a single salto. There's no additional strain required, and doing a simple jump in that position where you were setting up for a front tuck is naturally going to be a jump where your body is going to want to fall forward.

Have you ever done a belly drop on a trampoline? It takes a totally different level of control to do a back layout-belly drop than a back layout-punch front.

Of course I've done that, LOL. It doesn't take any real amount of control to do a belly drop. You simply lean forward (if you need to at all, lots of times that's just naturally where the bounce put you) and then fall. What on earth is this crazy assertion. It's completely standard to bounce out of things on trampoline into a belly drop (or back drop). People all over the world are routinely doing belly drops after triple saltos on tramp. There's nobody in the world who would ever say "I could have done a front salto out of X skill, but I couldn't have dropped down instead".

A Shushunova won't be coming out of this kind of rebound:

That video literally shows the ability to do a shush out of a double layout (although that's not the ideal way to do it). There's pretty much never a case where someone can do a split jump like that and couldn't have done a shush instead if they wanted to. She didn't need to split her legs like that while going up. She could have just done a normal jump and leaned forward and split her legs on the way down.

 

[crdubb17]

Yes you can. When you're rebounding into a front tuck (or ever doing one in general), at that exact point where you're pressing down to start it, you don't need to do a salto. You can just do a simple jump if you wanted to, similar to how you can bail out of a double salto at the start and do a single salto. There's no additional strain required, and doing a simple jump in that position where you were setting up for a front tuck is naturally going to be a jump where your body is going to want to fall forward.


Of course I've done that, LOL. It doesn't take any real amount of control to do a belly drop. You simply lean forward (if you need to at all, lots of times that's just naturally where the bounce put you) and then fall. What on earth is this crazy assertion. It's completely standard to bounce out of things on trampoline into a belly drop (or back drop). People all over the world are routinely doing belly drops after triple saltos on tramp. There's nobody in the world who would ever say "I could have done a front salto out of X skill, but I couldn't have dropped down instead".


That video literally shows the ability to do a shush out of a double layout (although that's not the ideal way to do it). There's pretty much never a case where someone can do a split jump like that and couldn't have done a shush instead if they wanted to. She didn't need to split her legs like that while going up. She could have just done a normal jump and leaned forward and split her legs on the way down.

I would love to see some videos of all of these routine triple somersault-belly drops you've mentioned. I'm not the best Internet sleuth so maybe I'm not searching properly!

 

[RichardL]

Yes you can. When you're rebounding into a front tuck (or ever doing one in general), at that exact point where you're pressing down to start it, you don't need to do a salto. You can just do a simple jump if you wanted to, similar to how you can bail out of a double salto at the start and do a single salto. There's no additional strain required, and doing a simple jump in that position where you were setting up for a front tuck is naturally going to be a jump where your body is going to want to fall forward.

On a floor exercise mat you are not "pressing down" to "start" a salto when rebounding from a double back. That is simply not how physics works. Have you ever coached this kind of combination or performed one yourself? These hypotheticals are so frustrating because they are not grounded in reality. Please show me one example from decades of these combinations being performed when a gymnast simply performs a jump when a rebounding salto was planned.

 

[Aeris]

I would love to see some videos of all of these routine triple somersault-belly drops you've mentioned.

I just linked an entire channel but here's a very clear example - triple back into triple front. Look at the start of the triple front. Anyone in that position could have done a simple jump up and belly drop. People at that level are trying to do harder things, but belly drops happen all the time out of various landings. That's, like, the foundational movement of being on a tramp as a kid and getting bounced by someone. You go flying up at on odd angle and naturally want to land forward coming down. Another example, look at this rebound - after a quad salto. They could have leaned forward in the air and landed on their front side if they wanted. It's not anything special.

On a floor exercise mat you are not "pressing down" to "start" a salto when rebounding from a double back.

Your downward momentum is directly pressing into the floor. That's what creates the rebound - using that force to go up, instead of absorbing the landing. It becomes a salto when you additionally toss your body to create angular momentum, but you don't have to do that.

Please show me one example from decades of these combinations being performed when a gymnast simply performs a jump when a rebounding salto was planned.

It happens literally every day in practice. People purposefully do a big hop out of the first salto when warming up instead of doing the second salto. Or just in general for any given warmup landing. Can't believe it's being litigated right now that jumping out of a landing is some kind of unusual thing. Jumping to prone is not a difficulty for anyone who was otherwise doing a purposeful hop. It's just falling on purpose, with slightly more height.